some talent is misjudged. some talent is misused. combing the 2 is lethal. the stags will only be as good as upper management can take them. the word skeptical has been mentioned. many many decisions must be made in the next 11 months.
RF, just as a reminder.... Not only were you skeptical of Needham before you seen him play, but were skeptical after you seen him play. I remember a couple of fans saying that Needham should never shoot the ball and he made our team bad. And then this fan below praising Grennan that he would be better than most of our Senior Guards..... Needham, Wade, Nickerson.
Joe Stag, you are absolutely correct that I saw Needham differently than you and many other posters. Before he arrived I was a skeptic. I was a skeptic about him like I am about everyone that I have not seen play. Other posters had hyped Turner and Devon Johnson as the next all time greats. I think it would be safe to say they were not. When those same posters hyped Needham, I look at that hype with a skeptical eye. I question anyone that hypes a player they have not seen play live, and I won't comment on players I haven't actually seen. Everyone has a highlight video with 20 good plays in it. I don't run away from my skepticism about Needham, Cobb or anyone I haven't seen.
My view of Needham after he arrived also differs from yours and others. I thought Needham was a good point guard and was his best his freshman year when he differed to Anthony Johnson and others. While he had a great career, he never lived up to the potential he showed as a freshman. Whether it is because he tried to do too much, lacked the supporting cast, had a coach that didn't properly use him or whatever the reason, he really didn't live up to what I hoped for from him. His biggest strength as a player in my view was that he was an incredible big shot taker and big shot maker. His biggest weakness was that he was not an efficient offensive player. I viewed this as a significant issue.
Would we take him on this team? Absolutely. But I never viewed Needham as having the offensive greatness that others put on him. Needham scored a lot of points because he took a lot of shots. His numbers do not compare favorably to the 1000 point scoring guards that played before him. In fact in quickly reviewing the list I did not uncover another 1000 point scorer who shot below 40% from the field. Jon Han, Terrance Todd, AJ Wynder, Mike Van Schaik among many, many others, all had much higher shooting percentages and much scored many more points per shot than Needham. Here are some examples: Shooting % Points per shot .436.........1.36 points per shot Mike Van Schaik .498.........1.34 points per shot AJ Wynder .413.........1.31 points per shot Jon Han .382.........1.14 points per shot Derek Needham
Wynder of course put up those numbers without having the ability to score three points on a shot during his first 2 seasons. Needham was a good player but he was not an efficient scorer, and the number of possessions he needed to score was part of the reason that team was somewhat challenged offensively.
Last Edit: Apr 5, 2015 23:24:40 GMT -5 by reindeerfan
All Coaches and Players Mis-judge talent, so that is nothing new. Usually batting .333 on a success rate is what good coaches do. However, for the last 9 years we have got only 1 Home Run at the guard position ..... Needham. That includes Cooley players too that did not achieve expectations like Devin Johnson, Lyndon Jordan, Jamal Turner, Sean Crawford ad Keegan Hyland. Some of which were thrown under the Bus by Cooley. Sydney has not been close to batting .333 for guard recruits
Again JS, we see this differently. First I view this issue with Grennan not a question of misjudging talent but a matter of misusing it. I see this as a failure of the coach not the player. Did Grennan shoot 87% from the line in high school; get recruited by a big east team and then forget how to shoot? Did he hit every college shot he took prior to Fairfield and again forget how to shoot a year later? (He was 4-4 from the floor and 2-2 from beyond the arc at Seton Hall). A player like this has a role on a MAAC team. I believe he was used improperly by the coach and was given up on way too soon. Another coach would have gotten a lot more out of Grennan.
While it is true that every coach misjudges talent, the issue is SJ is 1 for 6 not 4 for 7 like cooley was. You are right that Devin Johnson and Jamal Turner were not strong players. Of course we are making an apples to oranges comparison about the situation Cooley was in when he recuited Devin Johnson and the recruiting situation SJ was in. Cooley came to Fairfield in April and needed to fill 5 scholarships, essentially after recruiting had ended. He landed Mike E, Anthony Johnson, Rich Fleming and Devin Johnson. He also retained TOT recruit Greg Nero. Which recruiting class of SJ's boosted 3 players of the caliber that were in that class? Yes he erred on DJ but overall I think its tough to criticize that recruiting class. The following year, Turner, was a terrible recruit. Lyndon Jordan however I always felt was a good player. He shot 475 from the floor and scored over 400 points. How many SJ guard recruits will accomplish this? He's better than any any guard Sydney has brought in except for tyler nelson. I also think Sean Crawford is better than any SJ recruit, even though he barely played under cooley. Of course Kegan Hyland, never played at Fairfield because of an injury but given his 19 points per game scoring average this season again, I suggest that he is better than anyone SJ has recruited. Add Nickerson, Wade and Needham to the group of Cooley recruits and I suggest that in his 5 years at Fairfield Ed recruited at least 6 guards that are stronger than any SJ guard recruit with the exception of Tyler Nelson.
It would be interesting for you to try and put together a list of the guards that Sydney has recruited that are better than Cooley's "misjudgements" Jordan, Wade, Hyland and Crawford and are on par with his starters Nickerson, Needham and Wade?
Last Edit: Apr 5, 2015 21:24:32 GMT -5 by reindeerfan
RF, Lyndon Jordan certainly underperformed for his entire career, and was one of the main reasons that our team was Needham Centric, and failed to win a MAAC Tournament. Cooley's failure at recruiting guards was one of the biggest topics on this message board before Needham arrived. Players like Devin Johnson, Lyndon Jordan, Jamal Turner, and Sean Crawford were all backups at best. Don't you remember Cooley's inability to get a good guard..... Zamal Nixon, Trumaine Johnson and Chris Fouch all had success in Post-season. And after Cooley got Needham, he thought Fields and Hyland were the answer. That is why Cooley brought in Wade, because he needed a guard that had experience in taking a team to the NCAA Tourney..... and he know that the team could not continue with us always losing to good teams because we were "Needham Centric". Cooley would have loved to had a Tyler Nelson.
We can disagree on who we thought was better, but if you look at what coaches think...
- Needham was our only All MAAC Guard - Fields was a Bench player for 3 different coaches... Cooley , Sydney, Dunne - And Grennan was let go by 3 programs and 3 different coaches (Davdson, Seton Hall, and Fairfield). That means more thanthe 4 baskets he made in mop-up duty at Seton Hall
Needham could (and had to) create shots. Jordan and Nickerson could not (and did not). To simply look at shooting percentages to compare players is questionable at best. Needham brought something to the table that very few Fairfield players ever have. Was he a tremendous player? No. Was he a team leader and a clutch player? Yes.
I wish we had another Derek Needham.
Let's at least be rational with our comparisons.
Last Edit: Apr 6, 2015 8:04:18 GMT -5 by vastagman
Needham could (and had to) create shots. Jordan and Nickerson could not (and did not). To simply look at shooting percentages to compare players is questionable at best. Needham brought something to the table that very few Fairfield players ever have. Was he a tremendous player? No. Was he a team leader and a clutch player? Yes.
I wish we had another Derek Needham.
Let's at least be rational with our comparisons.
Also, many times Needham would create baskets even when he missed by drawing extra help, thereby creating offensive rebounding opportunities. Certainly you could not say the same thing about Jordan or Nickerson. No comparison in offensive abilities no matter what the shooting percentages say!
Needham was a "Real" Guard. A Multi-talented guard, who played at an All-MAAC level. And how many times would he turn a close games into a Stag win with a 2nd half run. Thats what good guards do.
Jordan Stood in the Corner for 4 years.... that was his game. Any comparisons to Needham are silly.
Nickerson was an excellent player for what he did, but he really was never a "Real" guard.
You know when you see a "real" guard, because they are multi-talented and create opportunities for the rest of the team and make them better ..... Todd, Han and Needham were all MAAC for a reason. I hope to be adding Tyler Nelson to that list.
RF, Lyndon Jordan certainly underperformed for his entire career, and was one of the main reasons that our team was Needham Centric, and failed to win a MAAC Tournament. Cooley's failure at recruiting guards was one of the biggest topics on this message board before Needham arrived. Players like Devin Johnson, Lyndon Jordan, Jamal Turner, and Sean Crawford were all backups at best. Don't you remember Cooley's inability to get a good guard..... Zamal Nixon, Trumaine Johnson and Chris Fouch all had success in Post-season. And after Cooley got Needham, he thought Fields and Hyland were the answer. That is why Cooley brought in Wade, because he needed a guard that had experience in taking a team to the NCAA Tourney..... and he know that the team could not continue with us always losing to good teams because we were "Needham Centric". Cooley would have loved to had a Tyler Nelson.
We can disagree on who we thought was better, but if you look at what coaches think...
- Needham was our only All MAAC Guard - Fields was a Bench player for 3 different coaches... Cooley , Sydney, Dunne - And Grennan was let go by 3 programs and 3 different coaches (Davdson, Seton Hall, and Fairfield). That means more thanthe 4 baskets he made in mop-up duty at Seton Hall
Joe Stag, I disagree on just about every one of your points. Cooley's bad guard recruits won 20 games for three straights seasons. I guess Cooley couldn't recruit. His back-up player Fields and Jordan combined to score more career points than the 7 guards guard Sydney Johnson has recruited combined to score over 4 years. These are Cooley's back-up players not his starters. There is no question that Cooley's back-up players were better than Johnson's starters. Again,I ask you which SJ recruit will score more career points than Cooley's back-up players? You will continue to dodge that question because Davis, Jenkins, Grennan, Threat, Rose, Chappell, et all will all finish their fairfield careers without scoring 500 points.
Lyndon Jordan was not offensively challenged, his offensive percentages were better than Needham's. He scored more points per 40 minutes than Needham and shot higher percentages than Needham. These are facts. Ed Cooley made a coaching decision to play Nickerson over Jordan because of Nickerson's defense. This was not about Lyndon Jordan's lack of offense.
Lyndon Jordan Points per 40 - 15.3 points per 40 Derek Needham Points per 40 - 14.6 points per 40
sports fans reindeerfan stated " cooleys back up players were better than johnson's starters " " cooleys bad guards won 20 in each of 3 seasons " need he say more ?
O'Toole (7 years) 9 - 1.28 rating 1. Deng Gai 2004-05, 2002-03 2. Jonathan Han - 2007-08 3. DeWitt Maxwell - 2003-04 4. Greg Nero - 2008-09 5. Sam Spann - 2001-02, 2000-01 6. Rob Thomson - 2003-04 7. Terrance Todd - 2005-06, 2004-05 8. Michael Van Schaick - 2006-07 9. Ajou Deng - 2001-02 H. Herbie Allen 2005-06 (Rookie Team) H. Tyquan Goode Defensive player of the year
Cooley (5 years) - 6 - 1.2 rating 1. Maurice Barrow (2010-11) all rookie, 6th Man 2. Derek Needham (2012-2013, 2011-12, 2010-11, 2009-10) 3. Ryan Olander 2010-11 4. Yorel Hawkins 2010-11 5. Anthony Johnson 2009-10 6. Rakim Sanders 2011-12 H. Mike Evanowich - 6th man
Sydney Johnson (4 years) - 1 - .25 rating 1. Marcus Gilbert H. Tyler Nelson Rookie Team, H. Amadou Sidibe Rookie Team,
Rating: 1.28 O'Toole (7 years) 1.28 players per year 1.25 O'Connor (4 years) 1.25 per year 1.20 Cooley (5 years) 1.20 players per year .83 Cormier (6 years) .83 players per year .25 Johnson (4 years) .25 players per year .17 Buonguoro (6 years) .17 players per yea
Last Edit: Apr 6, 2015 13:11:13 GMT -5 by reindeerfan
RF, Lyndon Jordan certainly underperformed for his entire career, and was one of the main reasons that our team was Needham Centric, and failed to win a MAAC Tournament. Cooley's failure at recruiting guards was one of the biggest topics on this message board before Needham arrived. Players like Devin Johnson, Lyndon Jordan, Jamal Turner, and Sean Crawford were all backups at best. Don't you remember Cooley's inability to get a good guard..... Zamal Nixon, Trumaine Johnson and Chris Fouch all had success in Post-season. And after Cooley got Needham, he thought Fields and Hyland were the answer. That is why Cooley brought in Wade, because he needed a guard that had experience in taking a team to the NCAA Tourney..... and he know that the team could not continue with us always losing to good teams because we were "Needham Centric". Cooley would have loved to had a Tyler Nelson.
We can disagree on who we thought was better, but if you look at what coaches think...
- Needham was our only All MAAC Guard - Fields was a Bench player for 3 different coaches... Cooley , Sydney, Dunne - And Grennan was let go by 3 programs and 3 different coaches (Davdson, Seton Hall, and Fairfield). That means more thanthe 4 baskets he made in mop-up duty at Seton Hall
Joe Stag, I disagree on just about every one of your points. Cooley's bad guard recruits won 20 games for three straights seasons. I guess Cooley couldn't recruit. His back-up player Fields and Jordan combined to score more career points than the 7 guards guard Sydney Johnson has recruited combined to score over 4 years. These are Cooley's back-up players not his starters. There is no question that Cooley's back-up players were better than Johnson's starters. Again,I ask you which SJ recruit will score more career points than Cooley's back-up players? You will continue to dodge that question because Davis, Jenkins, Grennan, Threat, Rose, Chappell, et all will all finish their fairfield careers without scoring 500 points.
Lyndon Jordan was not offensively challenged, his offensive percentages were better than Needham's. He scored more points per 40 minutes than Needham and shot higher percentages than Needham. These are facts. Ed Cooley made a coaching decision to play Nickerson over Jordan because of Nickerson's defense. This was not about Lyndon Jordan's lack of offense.
Lyndon Jordan Points per 40 - 15.3 points per 40 Derek Needham Points per 40 - 14.6 points per 40
source: Sports-reference.com
RF, Sports-reference says Needham averaged 16.9 per 40 minutes. And Jordan's numbers were left out for his first two seasons regarding this stat. But other two years listed were in the neighborhood of about 10PPG (per 40).